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The_Right_Honourable_Jimmy

Euthanasia for the Mentally Ill

Euthanise the Suicidal, Traumatised and Mentally Ill?  

7 members have voted

  1. 1. Euthanise the Suicidal, Traumatised and Mentally Ill?



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I've been browsing Facebook and I came this article by the BBC about euthanasia and that some people in Canada are calling for euthanasia for the mentally ill like in the Netherlands. I'm personally outraged for such thing.

It's one thing to call for euthanasia for the terminally ill,  and another to call it on people who want to die, people who can't make an informed decision.

Helping the people to die who are classed as ill because they want to die in the first place.

It's outrageous.

I've had various arguments with some of the sociopaths and depressed teens who are for this and call this the 'humane' thing to do if treatment is not working. Instead of blaming the clinicians for giving up them and calling them 'untreatable'.

'Humane' is doctors being persistent with that person, being there for them, listening to them, caring for them.

These people are ill and vulnerable and the state should be helping them instead of killing them. People should be ashamed for even supporting this. These people can be helped, they need support, their families have given up on them, they have given up, society must not though give up on them, WE MUST HELP THEM. It might take decades to repair the damage but giving up on them and killing them because they are suicidal; that's tyranny, that's not giving a shit.

The people who are behind this want to ease the pressure of a growing mental health crisis by the worse imaginable way possible, murder. These people are vulnerable. If a child asked you to kill him/her, would you, NO because they are child they can't make the right decision, it's the same with the mentally ill. I've been through mental illness, a clouded vulnerable mind can not make a right decision. Can not consent. If the mental illness is that extreme to the point that the person wants to die then that person loses the capacity to make such decision. Should we save the suicidal or let them kill themselves or even worse kill them our selves. If you honestly believe such thing should be in practice then I've lost all hope in humanity.

If this choice was available to me while I was ill, I would have taken it and be dead right now but treatment was chosen for me by force because I lacked the capacity to consent, now that I've recovered I'm glad treatment and LIFE was forced upon me.

We can't put these people down like a dog who doesn't fit in and no one wants it.

Ironically, I'm a libertarian but one thing the state can't do is try to force a person to live if they are of a sound mind (unlikely but possible). If you're of a sound mind, it is not illegal to take your own life, you will not be prosecuted but helped. Now if you're indeed mentally ill and need help, the state not only should lack the power of giving you a way out but give the clinicians the power to keep you safe till you are of a sound mind and can take care of yourself and make those decisions by yourself. Why? Because of the hippocratic oath, that's why! 

I believe in the non- aggression principle, talked by many libertarians and to me personally killing the mentally ill, those who don't know right from wrong at that particular time is a violation of that non-aggression principle. Just like a child who can't consent to sex, an acutely mentally ill person doesn't have the capacity to make a choice such as ending their life hence they must be protected till they are of a sound mind.

It's murder because they don't have the capacity to understand, just like a child who can't give consent to sex hence it is rape.

Now if you're of a sound mind nothing stops you from ending it all, you're a coward though if you want the state to do it for you. You have the right to die, what you don't have is a state that has the legislate power to do that for you. No one is taking people's rights away!

 

Edited by His_Majesty_Jimmy_I

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ragreynolds    798

I personally believe that every person should have the right to die. However, if a person is unable to make an informed decision, then, of course, they should not be allowed to make that choice. Saying "euthanasia shouldn't be allowed if you're mentally ill" is too broad of a stroke. There are countless mental illnesses that would not play any factor in a person deciding whether or not to end their own life. It really depends on each individual case more so than simply saying "no euthanasia for A, B, and C". 

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Sappho    216

 is what bry means by supporting abortion up to 18 years?

 

 

I'm with Ryan, I think if you want to choose to end your life you should have a "safe" way of doing it, opposed to doing it yourself and suffering throughout the process. I also agree that saying someone with a mental illness shouldn't be allowed is far too broad of stroke, plus who isn't mentally ill these days. It seems like everyone has some kind of depression/anxiety/ocd thing. Who are you, who am I, who is anyone to force someone to live? What right do we have to deny someone the right to their own death. If it's someone we love, I'm sure we won't like it, but if they've been suffering for so long then isn't it selfish to force them to continue? If they've tried all other options I think it is.

Assisted suicide is legal in Canada for the terminally ill, but I would support it being legalized for other cases. But I do think the person should have to try the other options available first, like therapy/meds/etc.

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I agree with Cherie and Ryan.

But mental illness is a long term thing and it is often a life thing, for many people what that mental illness is, is normality, just because you don't think its right because they're not sound of a healthy mind, doesn't mean they should have that decision taken or even made for them. Here's the thing, if someone's gonna try, they'll find a way to try and the repercussions if they survive can be more damaging then before if they don't see life as something to hold onto and they'll try again and it can become a lot worse for that person. Im not saying pass them the rope, but I am saying look at each case individually and provide the right mental health if possible or help them through their final wishes.

We all know there's no easy healing to mental illness and even for things like depressions I never think you're truly cured. Many of these illnesses have been around far longer than they've been studied and many people suffer with them. It isnt fair to hold stigmas over these things to the point you can't get treatment then deny them the right to die. 

It certainly isn't your place to dictate them as a coward. Life isnt for all of us and one mans struggles is someone's everyday and if you can't understand that sometimes people cannot cope then maybe you shouldn't be speaking on this subject. Your worst day could be the toughest thing in the world but you shouldn't then put that on someone else just because you don't think their problems compare. 

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On 20/07/2017 at 2:53 PM, ragreynolds said:

I personally believe that every person should have the right to die. However, if a person is unable to make an informed decision, then, of course, they should not be allowed to make that choice. Saying "euthanasia shouldn't be allowed if you're mentally ill" is too broad of a stroke. There are countless mental illnesses that would not play any factor in a person deciding whether or not to end their own life. It really depends on each individual case more so than simply saying "no euthanasia for A, B, and C". 

If your mental illness is making you suicidal then by all the books you are in crisis. I've done my research. 

Being genuinely suicidal because of your mental health and not because of a circumstance you've been placed to for example means you're either

Depressed

or

Psychotic.

(I heard some people with autism can be suicidal too in a not depressed or psychotic sense)

People with psychosis and people with severe autism like that definitely lack the capacity to make that decision hence they should be out of the question.

__

Now with a severe depressive episode in mood disorders (depression and bipolar) it's arguable that they lack capacity too.

597224f74e144_ScreenShot2017-07-21at16_59_04.thumb.png.cb26c1a05a653431ccc91663b1d1f6f9.png

People with mild and moderate depression don't suffer from suicidal thoughts, if they do then they are classed as severely depressed. People with severe depression if they refuse treatment, treatment is forced upon them under the mental health act. 

This is what happens when you refuse treatment, it's forced upon you because you lack the capacity.

59722627a4692_ScreenShot2017-07-21at17_04_09.thumb.png.9925e1d3d47073e023ec0109ab61d56d.png

So technically anyone that's sectionable (excluding if it's for assesment) lacks capacity hence they are by the eyes of the law unable to make such decision.

___

Now people with personality disorders are usually the ones that do have capacity to make such decision hence they are prosecutable under law. For example people with Anti-social personality disorder will be guilty if they commit a crime because they know right from wrong even if it's 'their illness that made them'.

People with BPD are the ones usually with suicidal thoughts and do have capacity to make such decision. It is argued though from the statistics of the numerous failed suicidal attempts and the frequent mild self-harm by each individual with BPD that is a cry for help instead of real suicidal intentions.

Suicide completion in BPD

'Long-term naturalistic follow-up studies, with one exception,16 have shown that about 10% of patients with BPD eventually commit suicide and that about 90% do not.17-20 Although 2 recent prospective studies report suicide rates closer to 4%,21,22 these results may be limited to cohorts that were consistently compliant with treatment.'

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/articles/managing-suicidality-patients-borderline-personality-disorder

 

It is also argued that some people with BPD if they are at risk of genuine suicide then they fit the criteria for a severe depressive episode and they are treated like a severely depressed person hence at that point in time while they are in that episode they lack capacity because they are sectionable and are given a co-mobrit diagnosis. 

https://www.verywell.com/bpd-and-depression-425421

So when people with BPD are not classed as medically depressed then statistics would show that they don't really wish to end their lives but it's a cry for help from all the misery they've been through and the emotional instability they experience from even the smallest trigger on a daily basis. 

If it's very highly likely that it's a cry for help then deep down they don't want to die even if they claim to or make themselves believe so. Do we really want to tell this person that we can kill them when they are very highly likely crying for help all the way and ignore that pain and let them perish. They are treatable; therapy, medication, love and persistency is all they need. They need someone to tell them that they love them.

The people that have capacity are people with personality disorders and all they need is therapy, somebody to love them, medication and PERSISTENCY. They don't really want to die, statistics show that. 

_____

TL/DR - My point is people who are genuinely suicidal because of their mental health are sectionable and/or lack the capacity to make the decision for assisted suicide. People that do have the capacity don't want to die in the first place and it's a cry for help if they go down that route.

 

Edited by His_Majesty_Jimmy_I

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3 hours ago, EndangeredShark said:

It certainly isn't your place to dictate them as a coward. Life isnt for all of us and one mans struggles is someone's everyday and if you can't understand that sometimes people cannot cope then maybe you shouldn't be speaking on this subject. Your worst day could be the toughest thing in the world but you shouldn't then put that on someone else just because you don't think their problems compare. 

I suppose that coward bit was misinterpreted. People who've committed suicide aren't cowards, they've done something that it's in our nature not to do. People who are suicidal aren't cowards either, they're battling what appears unbeatable. 

I'm myself puzzled though why someone would want the state to do it. I genuinely believe that if you're suicidal, you wouldn't want your family to be there with you and the state to do it for you. I'm not going to sit here and talk about I've been through but to me it doesn't make sense. if you want to end it all, why on earth you'd want people to be there with you, watch you and do it for you. If it were true why do people write sorry every time on a fucking a suicide note. They feel ashamed. So why on earth they would want to be with love ones and other people. 

I suppose if I had a family that was okay with me going through euthanasia and sit there watch me, I wouldn't be ashamed being around them and doing what I would be doing because they wouldn't have loved me in the first place if they'd let me go through the unthinkable. No wonder they go through it.

Edited by His_Majesty_Jimmy_I

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Tyrantblade    4

Yeah i dont agree with the mentally ill being put to death by their consent or the governments; if you struggle with mental illness you might sometimes wish to die or choose to die (if given a choice); but usually if you survive and start doing better (which isnt always easy), then you are glad you didnt die.

I personally struggle sometimes between being suicidal (every now and then, not all the time) and being glad to be alive and even just a couple months ago i was making risky decisions (drinking a lot of alcohol (drinking from a 1.75L of 80 proof liquor until i passed oit, and then whatever happened happened) and taking a lot of zzz-quill pills); and of course i survived, i don't know the likelihood of me actually dieing; and yes i know that maybe i should be more serious about my mental health; and yes im trying to do better, but as i said its really hard.

Think of me what you may, but im being honest and you will either like me or not, and i really dont care that much either way (unless im in a depressed mood, then i really care, and i cant predict my moods as im bipolar) .

And furthermore, dont correct me on my grammar as i hate grammar nazis, so fuck off if you are one of them.

And i dont expect simpanthy from anybody.

Edited by Tyrantblade

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