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The_Right_Honourable_Jimmy

Should businesses have the right to refuse to serve alcohol to pregnant women? (Debating Round)

Does this house believe that businesses have the right to refuse to serve pregnant women alcohol?  

9 members have voted

  1. 1. Does this house believe that businesses have the right to refuse to serve pregnant women alcohol?

    • Aye
    • No.
    • Abstaining (No Opinion)
      0


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This is a formal debate on the question of should private businesses such as pubs and supermarkets have the right to refuse to serve alcohol to pregnant women and should they also be encouraged to do so? 

Is refusing to serve them discrimination?

Cast your votes before posting and then proceed to debate. In four weeks time this topic will lock, when that happens, we'll have another round where we vote again and see how this debate thread was successful or unsuccessful for each side of the argument. 

___________________________

I came up with this debate because of new findings on the media that there isn't any conclusive evidence that moderate drinking is harmful for the baby.  That doesn't mean it won't harm the baby either.

_____________________

I shall be posting my views for the rights of businesses having the right to refuse as a fundamental right for them. I shall be posting that later on this day.

I do believe is a question of freedom of businesses vs consumer rights. 

Let the debating begin.

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This is a hard one. If there is scientific evidence that guarantees a baby will be harmed then I think that's where the place is for this discussion. However, if you're going to stop pregnant women drinking then surely you should also stop them smoking. Where do you draw the line? Should we stop them buying junk food since that's bad for you and could harm the baby? It's a hard thing to decide on.

I do think that businesses should have the right to refuse their services (for the most part). I think that if a bakery doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, they shouldn't have to, and I think that if a bakery doesn't want to bake a cake for a white nationalist convention, then they also shouldn't have to. The only time I think businesses should not be allowed to refuse all services is when you are talking about large corporations, and even then, I'm not fully against them refusing most services. I just don't think that the likes of Sony should have the ability to refuse someone the ability to purchase one of their game consoles. Ban them from a certain store for misconduct? Sure. But I think there are certain instances where it's not reasonable to let a business have 100% power. Give them 99% power.

I just fear specific big businesses having so much power that they can directly impact what people can and can't do. That's part of the reason I think that there is room for certain regulations on the likes of Facebook and Google to force them to uphold full freedom of speech. Certain businesses get too big and too powerful, and when they get to that stage then there have to be some boundaries. As a Libertarian, I am for small government, and I fear the government having too much power. But I think it's just as valid to be concerned over businesses becoming that exact same thing that we Libertarians fear governments becoming.

I do think that businesses should probably be allowed to refuse the sale of alcohol to certain individuals. Businesses already do this to rowdy/violent customers who are clearly very drunk, and they do it to people they cannot identify as old enough to drink. I think the issue with this situation though, would be in telling who is actually pregnant. Often times you would never know someone was pregnant, and sometimes you can't tell if they're just fat or if they're pregnant. There's no real way to know unless you asked them, and even then they could lie about it. It's not like people walk around with a 'proof of non-pregnancy' card. So I think that it's a thing that could never actually be introduced, even if I do think that businesses should be able to refuse the sale of the alcohol.

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I dont think it's OK for a pregnant mother to drink, not in any form, but, if a pregnant woman wants to buy the alcohol, she should have that right to buy it. even if she does drink it, which again, I do not support AT ALL.  but then I can see here, somewhere down the line, stores that sell alcoholic beverages may have people pregnancy test all women who are attempting to make a purchase, even if the drink isn't for them, themselves. That right there, would be a huge breach of privacy and a step in the wrong direction for society, maybe something so extreme wouldn't happen, but what if it did? This could raise a lot of discrimination suits, which would take away from the cause altogether, It very much is a possibility that this could happen at the words of one bleeding heart liberal. 

I think that they should have the right to deny sales to pregnant women if they want to, but it should be their right to choose, and the woman's choice of who she is really buying that alcohol for. 

 

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Simple Answer: No.

I think this can lead to far deeper issues in which the baby is more important than the mother. Of  course you should not be drinking or smoking for that matter when you have a child, we know the detrimental impact both things can have and especially with drinking the outcome, however, restricting their right to buy something because you don't agree with it will genuinely lead to new problems we already face. It removes the decision from the pregnant lady based on your morals and I don't agree with that. 

We are already facing a similar dilemma where boots has increased its price for the morning after pill and reasons given are basically to police women into having safer sex or considering their options by increasing their price range, the way I see it is that you're making decisions on behalf of people because of your moral alignment and it is unsafe and it is dangerous to do so and while drinking while pregnant is also unsafe and dangerous to do so it is a different type and i think more detrimental, you're basically telling people, as big business, that they are unable to take care of themselves, make their own decisions and big business should do it for them, but as long as theyre paying for this service then what right, besides price hikes which will put you in a bad light, do you have to do that? It starts with junk food and contraception but where does it end?

If anything, I think, like with all regulations, and these should be put on men, aswell, that a certain amount of alcohol can only purchased at a time,. We need to stop putting more emphasis on an unborn childs life when people, already here are dying because of somebodies drinking problem around it isn't given even half as much thought as it is to what women do with their bodies during the duration of a pregnancy, hell women arent given as much thought as their pregnancies are. Put regulations in place, it would genuinely protect us all.

On the other hand though, we need to stop blaming big business for problems that have existed in our society for a long time, every single person can make a choice on what they want to put into their bodies and while advertising can help you make that decision, ultimately, it is your decision to do so. Advertising, yes, is there to make you want to buy unhealthy food, but it is also their to make you want to buy healthy food, it is there to make you drink and also to seek help to quit and in the end it is your decision which one you choose... If we keep blaming supermarkets and big business for all of our problems, we are just putting powers into their hands that we very much so have, we lose our ability to choose what we want to do. We remove all blame from us and put it into businesses that are just their to make money and will use our blame to fuel their own agendas.

 

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15 hours ago, EndangeredShark said:

Simple Answer: No.

I think this can lead to far deeper issues in which the baby is more important than the mother. Of  course you should not be drinking or smoking for that matter when you have a child, we know the detrimental impact both things can have and especially with drinking the outcome, however, restricting their right to buy something because you don't agree with it will genuinely lead to new problems we already face. It removes the decision from the pregnant lady based on your morals and I don't agree with that. 

2

This isn't about restricting anyone's rights. In fact, it's about giving more rights to businesses. The government certainly shouldn't be making it law that you can't smoke or drink while pregnant, but I do think that individual businesses should be able to make their own decisions about who to offer their services to, for any reason.

However, as I said in my original post, I think this discussion is kinda pointless in the first place because it's not something that could ever actually be implemented because businesses would have no way of knowing for sure whether or not someone was actually pregnant. So unless someone has a solution to that, I don't even see the point debating this.

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15 hours ago, EndangeredShark said:

Simple Answer: No.

I think this can lead to far deeper issues in which the baby is more important than the mother. Of  course you should not be drinking or smoking for that matter when you have a child, we know the detrimental impact both things can have and especially with drinking the outcome, however, restricting their right to buy something because you don't agree with it will genuinely lead to new problems we already face. It removes the decision from the pregnant lady based on your morals and I don't agree with that. 

We are already facing a similar dilemma where boots has increased its price for the morning after pill and reasons given are basically to police women into having safer sex or considering their options by increasing their price range, the way I see it is that you're making decisions on behalf of people because of your moral alignment and it is unsafe and it is dangerous to do so and while drinking while pregnant is also unsafe and dangerous to do so it is a different type and i think more detrimental, you're basically telling people, as big business, that they are unable to take care of themselves, make their own decisions and big business should do it for them, but as long as theyre paying for this service then what right, besides price hikes which will put you in a bad light, do you have to do that? It starts with junk food and contraception but where does it end?

If anything, I think, like with all regulations, and these should be put on men, aswell, that a certain amount of alcohol can only purchased at a time,. We need to stop putting more emphasis on an unborn childs life when people, already here are dying because of somebodies drinking problem around it isn't given even half as much thought as it is to what women do with their bodies during the duration of a pregnancy, hell women arent given as much thought as their pregnancies are. Put regulations in place, it would genuinely protect us all.

On the other hand though, we need to stop blaming big business for problems that have existed in our society for a long time, every single person can make a choice on what they want to put into their bodies and while advertising can help you make that decision, ultimately, it is your decision to do so. Advertising, yes, is there to make you want to buy unhealthy food, but it is also their to make you want to buy healthy food, it is there to make you drink and also to seek help to quit and in the end it is your decision which one you choose... If we keep blaming supermarkets and big business for all of our problems, we are just putting powers into their hands that we very much so have, we lose our ability to choose what we want to do. We remove all blame from us and put it into businesses that are just their to make money and will use our blame to fuel their own agendas.

 

Don't forget to vote

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6 hours ago, ragreynolds said:

This isn't about restricting anyone's rights. In fact, it's about giving more rights to businesses. The government certainly shouldn't be making it law that you can't smoke or drink while pregnant, but I do think that individual businesses should be able to make their own decisions about who to offer their services to, for any reason.

However, as I said in my original post, I think this discussion is kinda pointless in the first place because it's not something that could ever actually be implemented because businesses would have no way of knowing for sure whether or not someone was actually pregnant. So unless someone has a solution to that, I don't even see the point debating this.

Which is what I disagree with, a business isn't human, it is to provide a service and while those humans behind it get to choose what and who to sell too, the business itself doesn't without negative or positive feedback... Putting moral decisions in the hands of big business reduce your rights because you are no longer choosing.

 My comment about law was a flip away thing, if any of the things I mentioned were a problem, they would already be in place and if it is, in much stricter implements, a business is there to provide a service and make money that is it. If we treat businesses like we do already for our own errors it's just handing power over that really doesn't belong there.

I agree with you though, it is unrealistic to assume and will cause more issues for the business and even if they could ban the sale of alcohol to pregnant women consumer rights and a whole lot of other shit would then kick in so what exactly is there to debate? They can say yes and no and I think that's all any business should do when it comes to this study.

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Would you be willing to pour beer down an infant's throat?

Would you be willing to give a beer to someone who you knew was going to feed it to a baby?

Why is it different if the baby hasn't been born yet?

 

I think it goes without saying that businesses should have the right to refuse service to anyone. This would extend to pregnant women, I imagine.

Edited by Nox
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Exactly what nox said. I used to refuse to sell cigarettes to pregnant women when I worked in a tobacco shop all the time. Hell, I refused business for much less. It essentially came down to this: If she wants to get her fix, she can get it elsewhere. That's her choice, and that's fine. But I won't have a part in it. I respect the choice of other businesses to do the same.

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A lot of people are confusing businesses refusing to serve vs. forbidding pregnant women drinking. 

I will never want to see legislation forbidding drinking for pregnant women but what I would like to see is less legislation forbidding businesses the right of refusing to serve people.

@Nox made a wonderful point. I work in retail and even if Greggs doesn't serve alcohol I wouldn't want to serve a pregnant woman alcohol because I wouldn't want to feel responsible for being part of what that woman is doing even if I don't believe in collective responsibility.

@ragreynolds I do understand it's impossible to tell if a woman is pregnant at early stages of pregnancy however if a woman is obviously pregnant (4 months plus) then a business or a pub should have every right to refuse. 

I am fed up personally with government interfering with what a business does. Regulations hurt businesses, end of. 

If I owned a pub I should have every right to refuse a pregnant woman from drinking in my premises. 

For two key reasons.

1. Morals

Pregnant women drinking is a no no. I wouldn't want to pour alcohol down a baby's throat.

2. Image

If I owned a pub with pregnant women drinking there, that would deter customers from drinking in my establishment. They'd consider my pub a place where 'human trash' hangs out and they wouldn't want to drink there.

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I had a friend that looked pregnant, but isnt. She is in her late 40's, has had four children and is a heavy drinker. She legit looks pregnant even though is having menopause symptoms. Again, I do not support pregnant women drinking, but if a woman LOOKS pregnant, but is not pregnant, she should be able to buy as much alchol as she wants. 

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26 minutes ago, Myvagmademedoit said:

I had a friend that looked pregnant, but isnt. She is in her late 40's, has had four children and is a heavy drinker. She legit looks pregnant even though is having menopause symptoms. Again, I do not support pregnant women drinking, but if a woman LOOKS pregnant, but is not pregnant, she should be able to buy as much alchol as she wants. 

This is the main issue imo. There's no real way to tell if someone is pregnant or not. You just have to take their word for it. I've seen so many instances where I or someone else could have sworn that someone was pregnant but it turned out they were not. It's not like people carry around ID cards that say whether or not they're pregnant. It's impossible to regulate. 

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14 hours ago, ragreynolds said:

This is the main issue imo. There's no real way to tell if someone is pregnant or not. You just have to take their word for it. I've seen so many instances where I or someone else could have sworn that someone was pregnant but it turned out they were not. It's not like people carry around ID cards that say whether or not they're pregnant. It's impossible to regulate. 

No one asking for regulations. All we're saying is businesses should have the right to refuse booze to full blown preggies. The ones that are hard to tell then that's different.

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5 hours ago, The_Right_Honourable_Jimmy said:

No one asking for regulations. All we're saying is businesses should have the right to refuse booze to full blown preggies. The ones that are hard to tell then that's different.

I know that. I know exactly what you're saying. But there is no way to know for 100% certainty if someone is pregnant or not. They might look full-blown pregnant to you, but that doesn't mean they are. As I said already, I and many others have been 100% sure that a person was pregnant, only to find out that they weren't. The only people who are probably going to be able to tell if someone is pregnant with 100% accuracy are medical professionals.

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On 9/22/2017 at 8:39 AM, ragreynolds said:

I know that. I know exactly what you're saying. But there is no way to know for 100% certainty if someone is pregnant or not. They might look full-blown pregnant to you, but that doesn't mean they are. As I said already, I and many others have been 100% sure that a person was pregnant, only to find out that they weren't. The only people who are probably going to be able to tell if someone is pregnant with 100% accuracy are medical professionals.

Realistically speaking, business owners have a right to refuse service to anyone. We can't make them serve us. They could legally deny me from buying alcohol for any reason including pregnancy.

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Capitalism is based around voluntary exchanges between people. You can't buy something if someone doesn't want to sell it to you. Full stop.

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Can you imagine someone being like “sorry miss I refuse to serve you, you’re clearly pregnant” and her not being pregnant

 

 

 

but yeah if someone is obviously pregnant you should be able to refuse them

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I agree with Nox. Businesses can refuse service regardless, but they should make the effort to specifically refuse obviously pregnant ladies from alcohol. I think that should go for cigarettes too but apparently that causes a lot more stress and isn't advised. That's a whole other topic though. .-.

 

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On 9/22/2017 at 11:04 AM, The_Right_Honourable_Jimmy said:

No one asking for regulations. All we're saying is businesses should have the right to refuse booze to full blown preggies. The ones that are hard to tell then that's different.

I forgot about this thread.

Businesses do have the right to refuse, that has never, ever been brought into question at all but unless youre actively gonna start making women do a pregnancy test, and you can't and even if you could some contraceptives will give a false positive, so again, you can't, to buy booze, you cannot tell if a women is pregnant or not just from a look over the counter. The only way to regulate it is by bringing in laws, at which point, you may aswell bring in laws to stop people buying enough booze to drive over the legal limit. There is no end in sight with that type of legislation but there is no other way that you can actually stop selling alcohol to pregnant women. ANY business can refuse service to ANYONE, that has never been disputed at all, a business absolutely can refuse service to a women they think is pregnant. 

Businesses should not be treated like political entities when we start telling them and giving them powers on who and what to sell, we lose our ability of choice. They are there to make money and the people who run them can decide who and what to sell to the general public, but you shouldn't want to place power into entities like this because they will just do what they can to make money, that means siding with political views that will make them money, but the realism of it is they should really remain neutral... That's what they are created for, to provide and sell, not become a political minefield.

So unless you want something to be brought in, what is the point of this thread because businesses already do have the rights that you said, a person behind the til can do what you said... Just expect outrage from the general public for doing so and you, as a person, employee, stand by your morals when it hits the media. I don't ever believe in handing powers over to big businesses because they won't have majority of the population in mind.

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